In London, the epicenter of the spiritual jazz boom, Viennese saxophonist and composer MURIEL GROSSMANN is considered a hot stock. She has releases on the renowned London indie label “Jazzman” and GILLES PETERSON is her fan. If one has not yet taken notice of her in this country in spite of her outstanding work, it might be because she’s now living in seclusion on Ibiza and is not really looking for the hype that her last albums have created. GROSSMANN talked to Markus Deisenberger about the “Drone Orchestra“, “Burning Sessions“ with JOACHIM KÜHN and her personal Ibiza.
First of all, let’s talk about the John Coltrane comparison that is always used in the press: Does it flatter you or does it annoy you?
Muriel Grossmann: Well, basically I’m happy when people who listen to our music are reminded of John Coltrane. Personally, however, I don’t share the opinion at all, because there’s only one John Coltrane and what he has achieved cannot be surpassed. But every musician loves Coltrane and is inspired by his work. It’s right there in the open. How you integrate that into your own experience, translate it into music and make something personal out of it, in the way your music sounds and the way you play your instrument, that’s the challenge. But as I said, if what we’re doing is reminiscent of Coltrane, that’s nice.
But do you think the comparison – quite apart from being flattering – is accurate in terms of sound and musical style?
Muriel Grossmann: No, I actually find it to be very different. If you listen to Coltrane and my last records side by side, you can’t compare them at all. So in terms of sound, there’s a big difference. But the feeling I have when I’m listening to Coltrane’s music, I can feel it when I’m playing my music. I can find myself in my music as much as in Coltrane’s music.
And in terms of spirituality?
Muriel Grossmann: When I hear his music, I immediately feel good. And the energy that he brings across with his quartet is the same I’m looking for in my music. But as I said, the way he plays can’t be compared to the way I play.
To develop that special energy, as a soloist you need a good ensemble. Your last records have this wonderful groove, reminiscent of “Bitches Brew” or “In a Silent Way” by Miles Davis. You’ve spoken several times about a “Drone Orchestra.” What do you mean by that? That as a soloist with such an ensemble and its drones you feel like being carried by a cloud?
Muriel Grossmann: You need to draw a distinction: One is the excellent ensemble, the other is the “Drone Orchestra” that I’m playing on the record myself. I created the “Drone Orchestra” to have a base over which our ensemble plays. It’s something very personal that developed during the time when I was listening to Alice Coltrane a lot, who was always adding exotic instruments to her sound, like the tanbur and other things that were playing in the background. From listening endlessly to that music and the intense desire to play multiple instruments, that’s how it all came about. On my first record with a “Drone Orchestra”, “Earthtones”, I played the instruments like kalimba, ngoni, krakebs, balafon, sarangi and tanbur on it beforehand. Today it’s the other way around: I play the “Drone Orchestra” for the band afterwards. So what you hear is tuned to the music.
And when you’re playing live?
Muriel Grossmann: I don’t have any musicians who play that. But that would be another step. Anyway, the “Drone Orchestra” makes the music sound more personal, and in a certain way it could be called spiritual jazz.
How did you put the band together? I assume you knew Gina Schwarz from your time in Vienna?
Muriel Grossmann: I used to play with other people. At the time I was working on the compositions of “Natural Time,” I wanted to bring more rhythm into my music, a steady groove. Before that I was playing avant-garde, more like Ornette Coleman, and had a band with Christian Lillinger and Robert Landfermann. That’s when “Awakening” came out, then “Earthtones”, which I also did with them – that was the album that was the transition to the spiritual. I’ve actually always written spiritual songs, but how we performed them was avant-garde. At some point I just wanted more drive. I had been working with guitarist Radomir Milojkovic for twenty years, and we talked about who would be a good drummer. He brought in Uros Stamenkovic, whom he had known from childhood. I also knew him from my time in Barcelona. And then I suggested Gina, because I appreciate her and know her from my time in Vienna. She’s very energetic, and even though she does her own stuff, she’s always giving 100%, which I really appreciate. That’s how the quartet emerged with which we released “Natural Time,” “Momentum,” “Golden Rule,” “Reverence” and “Quiet Earth”, and now “Union”, to be released in June. Since “Reverence” we grew into a quintet because I invited a hammond organ player who lives in Mallorca and with whom I already played other stuff: Llorenç Barceló. The sound of our music became even more diversified and authentic with him.
Your album “Golden Rule” was named “Record of the Year 2018” by UK VIBE magazine and nominated by the prestigious Gilles Peterson’s Worldwide Awards. Was that an uplifting moment?
Muriel Grossmann: It was mainly the vinyl release that did that. I had made so many records out there before, but only on CD, on my own label Dreamlandrecords. Then in 2017, the people from RR Gems approached me. With them, I made the “Golden Rule” LP. The moment my music came out on vinyl and the label did really great promotional work, it created a stir and encountered a pretty wide listenership. I won over audiophiles, loyal and heartfelt listeners who stay with you once they have found you. I hadn’t realized how many people are out there who appreciate that, and I only found out about it when the vinyl was released. I always thought my music would fit better on vinyl, but I wasn’t able do it on my own. I’ve always played gigs, made records and composed. But when suddenly magazines like UK Vibe or people like Gilles Peterson appreciate your work, it’s great, because it creates the possibility for your music to be appreciated by more people and to reach a wider public. Every musician likes to have their music heard. The revival of spiritual jazz has certainly helped, too.
How did “Elevation,” a compilation released on the label Jazzman, come about?
Muriel Grossmann: At Jazzman they became aware of me through RR Gems. They were distributing “Golden Rule” via their website and contacted me at some point. First we put out a single with two songs, a live version and one from the album. After that, they suggested we put out something else together. I presented them with all kinds of things. We could only do older stuff, as the new songs were signed to RR Gems. They chose tracks from “Momentum” and “Natural Time”, I changed the order a little bit, and we were both satisfied in the end. I think we will do something together again in the future, because it was a very nice collaboration.
You lived in Vienna for a long time, but then turned your back on the city to emigrate to Ibiza via Barcelona. What exactly brought you to Ibiza?
Muriel Grossmann: I’m someone who loves to travel. I love the sun and, back in Vienna, had been dreaming of moving south to the sea for a while. I left Vienna without a concrete plan of where I wanted to go. What I did know, however, was: I want to go to the sun. And I left to concentrate fully on music and to find my own band. I first landed in Barcelona, stayed there for a year and a half. Then in the summer I went by boat to Ibiza, got into a live club and was immediately hired for the whole upcoming season. The offer was every night for five months. During this time I discovered the island for myself and decided to stay.
According to the clichés, Ibiza is known for its sprawling parties and its lounge music in the afterhours. What does your Ibiza look like?
Muriel Grossmann: My Ibiza has nothing to do with what people usually talk about in connection with the island. For me, it’s about nature, the sea, the smells, peace, quiet, beauty and, of course, the sun, which is always there. That’s my Ibiza.
Do you need the retreat to be creative?
Muriel Grossmann: When you have a retreat like that, it’s the best place to compose. There I have the saxophones, the piano, the double bass, the drums, many, many instruments, records, a small studio. But when I hear melodies, chords or bass lines in my head, it doesn’t necessarily have to be in my house, it can also be at a gig in Helsinki where I’m putting down a new composition, in the car, in the hotel room or at the sound check. But then, in order to really work it out, I need the retreat. The island has contributed a lot to that.
The pianist and composer Joachim Kühn, a friend of yours who also lives on the island, once said that Ibiza is “the absolute anti-jazz island”. If one takes a look at your gig schedule, it doesn’t sound like “anti-jazz” at first. You’re playing up to twenty gigs a month, probably about 150 concerts a year …
Muriel Grossmann: Like you, Joachim was referring to an image that Ibiza is projecting to the outside world. The image that people generally associate with the island. Ibiza is a tourist island. In a normal year, the island is full up for six months. That’s when we are playing every night and are working real hard. For us live jazz musicians, that’s the most important thing: to play live every night. And that’s possible here. This strong season makes it possible. Of course, I have very few opportunities to play my own music in Ibiza. But what I play here is still jazz. There are a lot of clubs and restaurants, hotel bars, private events and openings, where we sometimes play our own music. But what we are playing most of the time is classic jazz.
Standards?
Muriel Grossmann: Yes. Music by Lester Young, Count Basie, Coleman Hawkins, Duke Ellington, Illinois Jacquet. Music that also reaches into soul jazz. We try to respect the boundaries of the style and the proficiency you need to have in order to play that music. But the island is not that “anti-jazz” either. At the time I met Joachim, he was in sessions every week. Burning sessions of twenty percussionists and drummers, him and me. It was the purest free jazz cauldron. There were little jazz bars where he played and I played too. He also gave his own concerts here. Just last year he played in a beautiful, big hall. Elvin Jones and McCoy Tyner also played here at the famous jazz festival, which is celebrating its 33rd edition this year. There’s a second festival that I’m also involved in to re-invite people like Nasheet Waits and Joe Sanders who have played here as well. A lot of musicians visit the island every year.
So one can think of your life as being strictly divided into two parts? Six months of hard work with almost one gig per evening of classic jazz, the rest of the time withdrawn to compose and prepare your own music in peace and quiet?
Muriel Grossmann: Normally it’s separated like this, yes: between May and November we are playing every day, the rest of the year there’s a lot of rest. In the winter I have time to get into post-production with the drones on an album recorded in the summer, I can choose or compose pieces, record the drones, edit albums to the point where they can be released. But over the last year, of course, the boundaries were blurred …
Where do I have to go to experience Muriel Grossmann like she’s playing on her albums?
Muriel Grossmann: To the neighbouring islands and to the mainland, where I am invited. To the usual places and the festivals where other musicians also play or have played before Corona, like Helsinki, Tallinn, Copenhagen… I was also invited to England and a big tour was planned, which then unfortunately – like so many other things – didn’t happen. During Corona I was also invited to Paris. So the usual international places where others also play. A jazz festival that was planned for February in Mallorca has now been postponed to July. This will be the next concert with my music. This time, I believe and hope, it will not be postponed. Simply locking everything down is no longer an option. Mallorca needs tourism, we need tourism.
How can one imagine your encounters with Joachim Kühn on the island? Drinking tea together and listening to Ornette Coleman records?
Muriel Grossmann [laughs]: Exactly like that. It used to be that I’d meet him in a session and we’d “burn” together, then we’d become friends and I’d come to him for tea, bring cookies, he’d play me his new album, I’d play him mine. Or I’d ask him if I could listen to something from his old days with Jenny-Clarke or with Ornette Coleman. Then he plays me that and other stuff that hasn’t come out yet and might come out one day, including very old stuff with his brother Rolf. It’s an extremely casual exchange that continues to inspire me a lot. Just thinking about him inspires me because he’s such a tremendously great artist. Seeing him in person is even more intense because he has an incredibly diverse record collection. We listen to a lot together. After all, he’s recorded with everyone – even Stan Getz. The topics are endless. He’s still extremely creative, composing and practicing every day, and has his routines.
Have you ever considered doing something together?
Muriel Grossmann: I would like to invite him onto one of my records as a guest musician. Otherwise, not really. He has many projects and has a standing contract with ACT that dictates exactly what he’s putting out, when and how.
You mentioned the revival of spiritual jazz. A lot of it comes from England. Your music, by comparison, sounds more relaxed and less opulent than, say, Kamasi Washington’s. More at peace with itself. Is that what the island does?
Muriel Grossmann: Yes, for sure. My music is not big city music. But I am particularly lucky to have found musicians with whom I’m getting along well, who get along well with each other and who contribute in a very intimate way to the whole, to the vision of how my music should sound for me, which makes me very happy. The communication is fine.
Does the label “spiritual jazz” fit at all?
Muriel Grossmann: Let’s put it this way: If no label were necessary, I would prefer that, because it’s simply music. Let others put a label on it. Spiritual Jazz is a sub-genre that I’ve listened to a lot, I do listen to a lot and that I also love. It’s a style I got into very early on, and it was present on my albums from the beginning, whether I was still playing avant-garde or not. Alice Coltrane, John Coltrane, Pharoah Sanders, and I’ve heard many musicians who could be included in that style, if you want. But it wasn’t until 2012 that I started writing music that was more inspired by Alice and John Coltrane. I was bringing in trance-like repetitions, pentatonics, and the ethnic influences of different cultures into the music.
The world music blueprint was also part of the plan?
Muriel Grossmann: That was already part of the plan, because I’m listening to music from all over the world, from Africa, India, overtone music, Bulgarian choirs, Japanese music. I listen to a wide range of music and wanted to reflect that more in my music. In addition, I have a real love for instruments and own many.
How many are many?
Muriel Grossmann [laughs]: Really many. Drums, percussion. flutes of all kinds, bamboo flutes or transverse flutes, overtone flutes. different basses, gembri, a double bass, tablas, a tanbur, a sarangi. I don’t know where to stop. I like the sound of each of these instruments. That’s why I started an album with these instruments: “Earthtones.” Then I kept that as an element in the following albums and developed it. Everything then came together in the record “Natural Time”. I would say that in the album “Reverence” the whole range of the drone orchestra was developed.
Would you describe yourself as a spiritual person?
Muriel Grossmann: Every person is a spiritual being, because that is our nature. All of us, even those who don’t think in those terms at all, are spiritual beings. We carry within us the desire to do good things. We all want to be happy. We want to do the right things, to help others, to strive for higher goals and for the advancement of our higher values and ideas that are inherent in us. That is the nature we are trying to realize.
You are a photographer, you have worked as such in Vienna for the magazine Wiener among others, you are a painter – creating the covers of most of your albums, for example – in fact you are an artist with a wide range of different art forms. Is music the amalgam that holds all the other creative activities together?
Muriel Grossmann: That’s an interesting thought. For me, music is the thread that never was torn in my life. Even when I worked as a photographer in between: music remained. But I myself am not thinking in these terms, I just do what I do. The beauty of music is that you can conceptualize it, talk about it. But you can also simply listen, and be in the moment.
Finally, a few words about the album “Union”, to be released on RR Gems pretty soon.
Muriel Grossmann: “Union” was the result of a tour before Corona in Mallorca. At the concerts I wanted to record the band live, but it didn’t work out for logistical reasons. I then decided to spontaneously go into the studio and book a few days when we had some free time. It was a recording session of our live set at that time, meant for the archives actually, but with everything that went off after that, I decided to put it out because I wasn’t able to record and release a sequel to “Reverence.” In that way, the two albums “Quiet Earth” and “Union” are great additions to my catalog, and I’m very happy how all that turned out.
Thank you very much for the interview!
Markus Deisenberger
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Translated from the German original by Julian Schoenfeld