“Your boy made it out his flat,” writes MAVI PHOENIX in one of his latest Insta-postings. There he was, still standing by the sea, blue sky above him, shooting his new video in Ibiza. One reality check later, we’re freezing in a grey city. Vienna has him back. And not even for a short time. On February 25, 2022, his second album was released: it’s called “Marlon”, with his face on the cover. It is a confession to his name – to himself. But above all, to his trans identity. “I want that every last person realizes that this is me now,” says the artist, and says: “For me, the name was a way out of my life at that time. How he mourns a past he never experienced, why he is proud of his beard and why he is embarrassed by his bedtime reading list, is what MARLON discussed in a conversation with Christoph Benkeser by the Donaukanal.
Your second record “Marlon” has just been released. Your transition to a trans-man will be in focus. Have you prepared a pool of standard answers for yourself?
Mavi Phoenix: Not set in stone, but I often find myself answering in a similar way. I actively try to counteract that, because nothing is more insipid than reading the same things about myself all the time.
Still, many will ask you how you feel now.
Mavi Phoenix: Yes, I already said that with “Boys Toys”. It just doesn’t resonate with a lot of people. For me, my transition is completely natural. I’m not just trying it out. It’s a logical progression that I’m determined to make. In fact, I’ve already had an interview today where my counterpart didn’t get it at all …
How?
Mavi Phoenix: He didn’t get it. He asked me if I was a heterosexual man.
That’s brazen.
Mavi Phoenix: Assaultive, actually.
That’s more like it, yes! How much have some people been living in caves …
Mavi Phoenix: Many people have no contact at all with the subject of transsexuality. They think to themselves, I was just the Mavi Phoenix they know from the “Aventura” video – how is it that I suddenly … Well, you know what I mean, right?
I guess.
Mavi Phoenix: At the time, nobody would have thought that I was now a trans-man and that I had gone from being a petite rapper to Marlon – and neither would I, by the way.
“EXACTLY, FUCK YOU!”
Does it annoy you that some people are so unsympathetic?
Mavi Phoenix: Extremely – but I try to keep it from bugging me because I don’t want to let anyone ruin my day. That’s why I’ve become more careful in dealing with other people than I used to be. This is a problem that lies with me. After all, I think that other people think differently about me. As a result, I appear less self-confident in conversation …
It’s terrible when there’s someone sitting there who doesn’t understand you and doesn’t make any effort to do so. It makes you think to yourself …
Mavi Phoenix: Exactly, fuck you! You really have to think that because it’s good for your own well-being. Also, you have to make a conscious decision whether or not you can muster the energy to deal with a person like that.
After all, it’s not just the time resources, but the emotional ones as well. It’s work to argue against not being understood. How do you deal with that?
Mavi Phoenix: In my circle of friends, it’s old news. Publicly, though, it’s the first time I’ve appeared that way. That often works well. Bad experiences happen rather rarely, and when they do, I think to myself, maybe it wasn’t meant badly, maybe the person just doesn’t have enough tact …
Well, that doesn’t necessarily speak much for the person.
“I find it a pity that the existence as a transperson becomes grounds for a debating club.”
Mavi Phoenix: Sometimes you really get questions that don’t work at all. You don’t ask a cis guy or cis woman intimate questions about his or her body all the time. I find it a pity that the existence as a transperson becomes grounds for a debating club. It’s not like I’m making a statement! It is turned into a statement by others.
That sums it up well. Everybody is discussing it, but very few people check it out. The fact that there are people like you who use their position in the public eye to make the topic an issue is still cool.
Mavi Phoenix: But I also take the liberty of not talking about it. My entire output doesn’t have to revolve around the topic of transsexuality. Besides, everyone can imagine how much it contributes to my identity as an artist. In the end, that’s what I’m being made into.
“My entire output doesn’t have to revolve around the topic of transsexuality.”
Can I ask you what your thoughts were before you transitioned?
Mavi Phoenix: Of course I was was asking myself what it would mean to take this step. But I went into it, fearless. After all, I knew that it wouldn’t work out any other way for me. So I was also able to deal with the question of whether and how my career would continue. That scared me at first. Because the Mavi Phoenix of a few years ago no longer exists. The transition was the end of her career. And that end was important for me to continue as an artist.
It sounds a bit silly in this context, but you describe the quintessence of developing further as an artist.
Mavi Phoenix: Totally! People forget that everyone changes all the time! You’re not going to be the same person you were five years ago, are you?
No, of course not. Every conversation changes. Just like it does now.
Mavi Phoenix: Exactly! The difference with trans people is that you see the change dramatically. People just forget that they’ve changed just as much. Just differently.
This unwillingness to change is something very Austrian, isn’t it?
Mavi Phoenix: Well, I feel it everywhere – people choose what they know because they feel more comfortable with it. Nevertheless, time does not stand still. You either go with it, or you miss it all!
In your case, that also means enduring accusations.
Mavi Phoenix: At some point, you see the situation as if from a bird’s eye view. That makes me realize that 99% of the time it’s the issue of the person, who has a problem with me. I know I didn’t do anything wrong. It’s not my fault if someone can’t handle it.
Coming to that realization takes time, though, I suppose.
Mavi Phoenix: Yeah, but even if you have the realization, it doesn’t change the fact that it’s hurtful when someone treats you like crap. It pisses me off when people can’t handle it. It’s just stupidity.
You made a video about your year-long transition. At the beginning you see an obviously pissed Mavi, at the end a happy guy smiles into the camera.
Mavi Phoenix: Yes, full on! When I started doing it, I was in a really bad mood. I thought it would take forever. But it goes pretty fast before you start to notice the first changes! Now I can’t even imagine that I was different before. When I see photos from back then, of course I check that this is me. But it is so crazy!
What do you think when you see those pictures?
Mavi Phoenix: I can understand how it must look to other people. On the one hand, it frustrates me because I know that people can’t understand my transition. On the other hand, I don’t look at the photos much anyway.
“I noticed how much better I felt. Not just on the outside, but on the inside.”
Some trans people talk about a first and a second birth in that context.
Mavi Phoenix: That’s definitely true. The moment after the top surgery was like a second birth for me. The surgery is hard – after all, you’re interfering with an intact body and that’s hard to understand at first. That’s when I thought to myself, it really sucks to be trans. And the thought is totally ok because the process is not that easy. Nevertheless, a few days later I noticed how much better I felt. Not just on the outside, but on the inside.
And vocally. In the video you uploaded, you can hear that too. It gets lower and lower until a guy with his voice cracking speaks into the camera.
Mavi Phoenix: Ha ha, that’s not going to change anymore … maybe a little bit. But sure, it’s a change. I can’t sing my old songs like I used to. That was the moment I realized that the old Mavi Phoenix doesn’t exist anymore. The person is still there, but the voice is gone. That’s when I briefly thought to myself, fuck … there’s a teary eye.
But only one.
Mavi Phoenix: Exactly! When I stood in the studio for the first time again and could try out and play around with my deep voice – that was a cool moment. At that time I wrote the song “Tokyo Drift” and I wrote “the future? so bright!” – just because I wanted to tell myself that.
When was the last time you cried?
Mavi Phoenix: Last week. When I started taking testosterone, I couldn’t cry at all. It’s since come back. I don’t cry much, but I shed a few tears. That’s… good, too! Many people don’t realize that it’s not enough to take the hormones and have the surgery. It doesn’t automatically go uphill afterwards. I also feel a sadness sometimes – that I had to expose myself to this process, and that I never experienced some situations.
What do you mean by that?
Mavi Phoenix: I never experienced some developments as a man. I can’t undo that.
It’s a mourning for a past you never had.
Mavi Phoenix: Exactly! On one hand, I took control of my life and did what I wanted to do. On the other hand, there’s a feeling of having missed out on some things. That’s life, it’s not always awesome.
I understand the thought. I guess you ask yourself, why do you have to go through all this?
Mavi Phoenix: Why wasn’t I just be a boy, yeah!
“I don’t want to be trans. I am,” you once said.
Mavi Phoenix: Yeah, it’s not a decision you want to make. The decision of transitioning is yours alone.
“Mavi Phoenix has always changed.”
I just finished reading the book “Identitti” by Mithu Sanyal. That’s not about transsexuality, but about the question of post-race. But the overlying negotiation of identity is perhaps comparable.
Mavi Phoenix: Okay, I’ll have to take a look at that.
What’s your reading practice like?
Mavi Phoenix: I like to read before I go to sleep, it totally helps me.
What do you read?
Mavi Phoenix: I’m a little embarrassed about that.
Whatever it is, don’t be embarrassed.
Mavi Phoenix: Okay, I’m reading funny paperbacks by Donald Duck.
Childhood memories!
Mavi Phoenix: Yeah totally, I read those books as a kid. Now I even have a subscription and get a new funny paperback every month.
Really good.
Mavi Phoenix: But I also read other things – at the moment a book about David Bowie from the 1970s that my dad gave me for my birthday.
David Bowie as a chameleon art figure is certainly exciting, isn’t it?
Mavi Phoenix: Exactly, the way he dealt with his own identity is interesting. He changed constantly, was never the same at any time. I can identify with that. But not only because I’m trans, but also because Mavi Phoenix has always changed. When I look at my evolution from 2016 … I was different every year.
You were always changing, you mean?
Mavi Phoenix: Yes, I think I need constant change. Right now I also have the desire to change something – not necessarily about myself, but …
Repaint the apartment?
Mavi Phoenix: Exactly that kind of thing! I have a hunger for life, want to try everything … at the same time, of course, I know that’s a mega privilege!
You don’t have to have the high-life all the time, but you can see it relatively and appreciate life, right?
Mavi Phoenix: Yes, you don’t have to be ashamed of yourself!
The main thing is to reflect on your own actions.
Mavi Phoenix: That is more than many others do! Society benefits from reflection.
Before that, we torch the patriarchy.
Mavi Phoenix: Maybe we can all start over in the Metaverse.
Would you be a metaverse guy?
Mavi Phoenix: I’d love that! I like to play Playstation. Right now I’m playing Assassin’s Creed Odyssey – you’re a mercenary in ancient Greece … If I play through that for a weekend, it takes me a while to get back to real life. Simply because I think I’m the dude from the game.
You identify with the game?
Mavi Phoenix: Totally! I really get into it. That’s why the Metaverse can get crazy for me.
Is it so obsessive-compulsive-like?
Mavi Phoenix: Ha, yeah! That’s a concept to me.
How else does that urge show up in your life?
Mavi Phoenix: Most of the time it starts with a game. Then I play that for a month or two until it gets stale – then comes the next one I get into.
It’s good to know that there’s always more to come?
Mavi Phoenix: Yeah, that’s why I never tried drugs.
You’ve always been straight-edge?
Mavi Phoenix: Always clean, yeah! I don’t even drink alcohol.
“I’m drinking beer since I met you,” you sing on the song “Leaving.”
Mavi Phoenix: That was actually the case, but only back in the summer.
Because you don’t like it?
Mavi Phoenix: I actually like beer quite a bit. I also like the feeling of being a little drunk. However, I hardly ever drink anything. And: There’s nothing worse for me than feeling sick the next day.
That’s a boy thing, you once said. Standing together after a concert and drinking beer.
Mavi Phoenix: Totally, but I’ll tell you: Sometimes I don’t feel comfortable among guys at all. I’m sure it has to do with the fact that I used to hang out more with girls … I don’t want to say that there’s a huge gender difference, but …
You can say that. Society is divided into gender roles that you have to conform to.
Mavi Phoenix: Yes, that’s what I mean. In men’s groups, people are more to themselves. You chill out, you’re funny, but you don’t let the others in on what’s going on.
That’s where the beer comes in. It makes it easier for men to talk about their feelings – toxic masculinity!
Mavi Phoenix: It’s like that! However, there are many men who can handle it better.
Speaking of handling it better: Your album is called “Marlon” – that’s not only a commitment to your name, but also to your identity, right?
Mavi Phoenix: That was the reason why I named the record like that, yes. I want every last person to finally check it! Also, I associate a lot of positive things with the name. For me it was a way out of my life at that time. I could become Marlon. At the same time it is a goofy name …
Goofy?
Mavi Phoenix: Out of a joke, a friend of mine called me that. It was kind of obvious … Marlene, Marlon … Anyway, the name stuck. My mom said, Marlon? Marlon Brando? That’s not a good name! But I felt: That’s my name – it fits perfectly!
Does it also appear in your passport?
Mavi Phoenix: The change of civil status went pretty quickly, the name thing took a while … So I was registered as male, but with my old name. In the end it worked out – an amazing feeling!
Because then you also see it officially, do you think …
Mavi Phoenix: You finally feel recognized, exactly.
“THE LYRICS ARE MY DIARY.”
There are some tracks on the album where you play guitar. It has a bit of a B72 vibe. Are the noughties indie back?
Mavi Phoenix: Some songs go full indie, that’s true. But on “Marlon” there is also hip-hop. And I haven’t forgotten pop.
“Leaving” is the guitar anthem of the record.
Mavi Phoenix: I like that song, too. I was able to express myself creatively in a new way on the guitar. Also, I wanted to show with it that I am a serious musician. In the past, I often had the feeling that this aspect was lost. But I want people to know that I write the songs myself and produce them with Alex [The Flipper, note].
With “Only God,” the first track on the album, it immediately becomes personal.
Mavi Phoenix: The lyrics are my diary. What I write is what I experience and go through. By writing these experiences down, I come to terms with them. That’s why I never think about what I want to get across when I write – it happens automatically through processing.
In recent years, you’ve become more and more personal in your songs. With “Marlon,” it feels like you’ve been able to uncover a new, deeper level within yourself.
Mavi Phoenix: I needed the outing because the Mavi Phoenix thing has slipped away from me in recent years.
What do you mean?
Mavi Phoenix: I couldn’t control what people thought about me anymore.
You were always the cool Mavi Phoenix.
Mavi Phoenix: That people have an image is clear anyway. But I underestimated it. And hated it at the same time. My external image no longer had anything to do with my inner life. That’s why I had to come out publicly to be able to continue making music.
As a woman, you wanted to do everything to not feel like a normal woman. And as a guy, you want to do everything to feel like a normal guy. At least that’s kind of what you said at one point.
Mavi Phoenix: Still, I care about showing that I’m a fantastic artist.
And not just the average guy?
Mavi Phoenix: If everyone thinks that I’m just the average dude as Marlon, that’s not good for me. I’m already fully the artist!
Did the “average-guy” thing fall on your head a little bit? It’s made you vulnerable, but it’s also …
Mavi Phoenix: Lost the magic, yes. The first EP was called “Young Prophet”, then came “Boys Toys” …
You went from being a prophet to being Marlon. A disenchantment?
Mavi Phoenix: Oh God, that’s right!
Some people go the other way. It’s not exactly more likeable.
Mavi Phoenix: I used to be much more arrogant, along the lines of: No one does it as well as I do. In the meantime I am “Marlon”.
“My external image no longer had anything to do with my inner life.”
What do you want to achieve with the record? Is it a transition for you, or is there a clear path?
Mavi Phoenix: It’s the foundation of what’s to come. It’s about love, about relationships …
We’ve been talking for a long time now. Can I ask you: are you currently in a relationship?
Mavi grins. We are standing at a traffic light. He takes his time answering.
Mavi Phoenix: Yes, I am! I had a short dating phase where I was already the way I am now. For me, as a man, it was … new! A humbling experience! On Tinder, you get ghosted right away, it’s already different …
Than?
Mavie Phoenix: Before that! I’ve been hurt a few times – you can tell by some of the songs. Still, dating as a man was a cool experience. When you write with someone from that place … it felt like the first time.
You’re catching up on your male puberty with it. Is that fair to say?
Mavi Phoenix: Totally! And it’s not over yet.
Are you proud of your beard?
Mavi Phoenix: It could be more, but it’s …
A beginning!
Mavi Phoenix: And it will be. It just takes time.
It’s nice that we could talk so openly today. Thank you for your time and for the conversation!
Christoph Benkeser
Translated from the German original by Arianna Alfreds.
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